Mr. Motherlode:
Just would like to clarify my argument in "Chart A Discrepancies". My position on 7thb9 has never been that it is twice as dominant as a 7th chord, nor that PMG VII has a "dominant" essence.
I agree 100% that PMG VII has a minor essence, as it is actually the phrygian mode (especially when relating to it as a CMG), which houses a minor triad.
My issue with Chart A was that the term 7thb9 was being used to describe the chrord that naturally exists on PMG VII, when in fact, that chord name is entirely misleading. To me, something like m7b5b9 more accurately expresses the kind of chord that exists on that modal degree.
It is only in the Lydian Diminished scale that the 7thb9 chord exists on PMG VII, since the lowered 4th degree is is really a major third, qualifying the chord to bear that name.
7thb9...(revisited)
Moderators: bobappleton, sandywilliams
Forum rules
An open letter from Alice Russell. June 21, 2011, Brookline, Massachusetts. 1. DO NOT make insulting, mean spirited remarks about anyone or their work; there are a plethora of sites where you can rant unfettered. If you attack someone personally, your comments will be removed. You can post it, but I'm not paying for it. Go elsewhere, and let those artists who are actually interested in discussion and learning have the floor. 2. There will be NO posting of or links to copyrighted material without permission of the copyright owner. That's the law. And if you respect the work of people who make meaningful contributions, you should have no problem following this policy. 3. I appreciate many of the postings from so many of you. Please don't feel you have to spend your time "defending" the LCC to those who come here with the express purpose of disproving it. George worked for decades to disprove it himself; if you know his music, there's no question that it has gravity. And a final word: George was famous for his refusal to lower his standards in all areas of his life, no matter the cost. He twice refused concerts of his music at Lincoln Center Jazz because of their early position on what was authentically jazz. So save any speculation about the level of him as an artist and a man. The quotes on our websites were not written by George; they were written by critics/writers/scholars/fans over many years. Sincerely, Alice
An open letter from Alice Russell. June 21, 2011, Brookline, Massachusetts. 1. DO NOT make insulting, mean spirited remarks about anyone or their work; there are a plethora of sites where you can rant unfettered. If you attack someone personally, your comments will be removed. You can post it, but I'm not paying for it. Go elsewhere, and let those artists who are actually interested in discussion and learning have the floor. 2. There will be NO posting of or links to copyrighted material without permission of the copyright owner. That's the law. And if you respect the work of people who make meaningful contributions, you should have no problem following this policy. 3. I appreciate many of the postings from so many of you. Please don't feel you have to spend your time "defending" the LCC to those who come here with the express purpose of disproving it. George worked for decades to disprove it himself; if you know his music, there's no question that it has gravity. And a final word: George was famous for his refusal to lower his standards in all areas of his life, no matter the cost. He twice refused concerts of his music at Lincoln Center Jazz because of their early position on what was authentically jazz. So save any speculation about the level of him as an artist and a man. The quotes on our websites were not written by George; they were written by critics/writers/scholars/fans over many years. Sincerely, Alice
On pg 25 of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Piano Book", he refers to "phrygian chords". He opens this section with "A Phrygian chord is a dominant seventh chord with the thirteenth in the bass."
Makes sense, since PMG II is primarily where 7th chords are created, and their 13 degree is on VII of the Lydian scale. What this additional reference shows agrees with much of the discussion about this chord in this forum. Namely, that this PMG is expressing an inversion of a chord of another PMG. As a ROOTED chord, it expresses a minor-type genre. As an INVERSION, it can either express the I PMG with it's seventh degree in the bass, or the II PMG, with it's 13th degree in the bass.
Make sense?
Makes sense, since PMG II is primarily where 7th chords are created, and their 13 degree is on VII of the Lydian scale. What this additional reference shows agrees with much of the discussion about this chord in this forum. Namely, that this PMG is expressing an inversion of a chord of another PMG. As a ROOTED chord, it expresses a minor-type genre. As an INVERSION, it can either express the I PMG with it's seventh degree in the bass, or the II PMG, with it's 13th degree in the bass.
Make sense?
The D7b9 chord in both of the posted examples is possible on C LD II and Eb LD VII.
The melody in the original example works fine on PMG C LD II, since it does not contain any notes that this most ingoing tonal environment cannot sound.
The melody in the new version suggests the more outgoing AMG Eb LD VII, because of the presence of F and Bb, neither of which appear in C LD II.
The chord, regardless of tonal environment, is a 7th chord, with the added b9.
The melody in the original example works fine on PMG C LD II, since it does not contain any notes that this most ingoing tonal environment cannot sound.
The melody in the new version suggests the more outgoing AMG Eb LD VII, because of the presence of F and Bb, neither of which appear in C LD II.
The chord, regardless of tonal environment, is a 7th chord, with the added b9.
I listened to the Coltrane quote.......Interesting!
I guess you're right when you say that "everyone gets what they need according to their level of understanding".
My tendency is to accurately spell out ALL the voices of a particular chord, so that I can differentiate it from another.
That's probably why I'm having a hard time understanding all of the AMG's listed on Chart A. Some of the chords fit nicely into another modal genre, because the altered tone of one of the principal scales supplies whichever tone was missing the Lydian scale.
For example, C L only allows a 7th chord on II, but C LA also allows one on III, thus allowing that degree to be an alternate modal genre for the chord. But of course, not all of the AMT's listed at the left of Chart A fit a 7th chord so neatly. Some will be an "altered seventh".
I was hoping the concept was going to provide an "explanation" for all those tonal vagaries in music. Maybe I'm one of those black-or-white, all-or-nothing peeple......
I guess you're right when you say that "everyone gets what they need according to their level of understanding".
My tendency is to accurately spell out ALL the voices of a particular chord, so that I can differentiate it from another.
That's probably why I'm having a hard time understanding all of the AMG's listed on Chart A. Some of the chords fit nicely into another modal genre, because the altered tone of one of the principal scales supplies whichever tone was missing the Lydian scale.
For example, C L only allows a 7th chord on II, but C LA also allows one on III, thus allowing that degree to be an alternate modal genre for the chord. But of course, not all of the AMT's listed at the left of Chart A fit a 7th chord so neatly. Some will be an "altered seventh".
I was hoping the concept was going to provide an "explanation" for all those tonal vagaries in music. Maybe I'm one of those black-or-white, all-or-nothing peeple......
Motherlode, (and I apologize for assuming you are a male), you suggested that the D7b9 chord in the example is basically the same as a Cm chord over a D bass.
First, let's compare the two chords.
One, spelled from bottom to top, is: D C Eb G.
The other, spelled from bottom to top, is: D A C Eb F#
My ear (very, very horizontally biased, by the way) considers them to be similar in effect to playing a Dsus4 chord followed by a D major chord (a very common occurence in popular music, and not unlike classical music's "appogiatura"). Main difference being the addition of the 7th and b9th degrees.
It's also interesting that you consider the chord D C Eb G to be a C minor chord with D in the bass.
Isn't this similar to suggesting that a chord spelled from bottom to top: D C E G is really a CM9 chord with the 9th in the bass?
We must appreciate that there are vagaries when we express any chord as an inversion. For example, some may consider the chord (from bottom to top) C D F# A to be D7 with the 7th in the bass. Others may consider it a CM13 chord without the 3rd, 5th, or 7th.
Like I mentioned, my ear (and brain, I guess) seems to favour a rooted chord with each voice reconciled to that root, rather than an inversion involving the 9th of the chord in the bass.
To each his/her own.....
Guess that's the cool thing about the concept, is that it opens up to each of us a very huge and very personal interpretation of what we're seeing/hearing in music, while providing a structure so that we can describe our own take on it to each other in understandable terms.
Pleasure getting to know all of your various viewpoints!
First, let's compare the two chords.
One, spelled from bottom to top, is: D C Eb G.
The other, spelled from bottom to top, is: D A C Eb F#
My ear (very, very horizontally biased, by the way) considers them to be similar in effect to playing a Dsus4 chord followed by a D major chord (a very common occurence in popular music, and not unlike classical music's "appogiatura"). Main difference being the addition of the 7th and b9th degrees.
It's also interesting that you consider the chord D C Eb G to be a C minor chord with D in the bass.
Isn't this similar to suggesting that a chord spelled from bottom to top: D C E G is really a CM9 chord with the 9th in the bass?
We must appreciate that there are vagaries when we express any chord as an inversion. For example, some may consider the chord (from bottom to top) C D F# A to be D7 with the 7th in the bass. Others may consider it a CM13 chord without the 3rd, 5th, or 7th.
Like I mentioned, my ear (and brain, I guess) seems to favour a rooted chord with each voice reconciled to that root, rather than an inversion involving the 9th of the chord in the bass.
To each his/her own.....
Guess that's the cool thing about the concept, is that it opens up to each of us a very huge and very personal interpretation of what we're seeing/hearing in music, while providing a structure so that we can describe our own take on it to each other in understandable terms.
Pleasure getting to know all of your various viewpoints!
Quote from motherlode: "A piece of music to illustrate any point is very helpful..."
Just by way of comparison, I have included a very short, very, very rouph sketch (thanks to my lack of proficiency with Finale) of the opening to Oscar Peterson's "Gentle Waltz".
http://www.4shared.com/file/45375221/c2 ... d=f916286f
http://www.4shared.com/file/45375204/80 ... d=f916286f
I made the sketch of the origingal chords (wasn't able to notate the rhythm the way it appears in the song, but at least you get the harmony/melody idea), and then a second sketch with your minor/IX bass chord used in measures 2 and 6 - in place of the piece's original 7b9 chords.
The original chords fit very neatly into a F LD scale (even the E7b9, as the G# third is supplied by the scale's Ab tone), which was pretty exciting for me to find - this piece was pretty much my first attempt at musical analysis using the Concept.
Your minor/IX bass chord fits, too. However, your ears may notice an increase in dissonance (obsolete terminology, I know) in comparison to the 7b9 chord, which to me, again signals that the tonic of your minor chord is actually the 4th of a 7b9 chord.
Anyway, agree or disagree, I thought I'd provide a musical example and tweak it to see if I "get" your idea or not. Let me know....
Just by way of comparison, I have included a very short, very, very rouph sketch (thanks to my lack of proficiency with Finale) of the opening to Oscar Peterson's "Gentle Waltz".
http://www.4shared.com/file/45375221/c2 ... d=f916286f
http://www.4shared.com/file/45375204/80 ... d=f916286f
I made the sketch of the origingal chords (wasn't able to notate the rhythm the way it appears in the song, but at least you get the harmony/melody idea), and then a second sketch with your minor/IX bass chord used in measures 2 and 6 - in place of the piece's original 7b9 chords.
The original chords fit very neatly into a F LD scale (even the E7b9, as the G# third is supplied by the scale's Ab tone), which was pretty exciting for me to find - this piece was pretty much my first attempt at musical analysis using the Concept.
Your minor/IX bass chord fits, too. However, your ears may notice an increase in dissonance (obsolete terminology, I know) in comparison to the 7b9 chord, which to me, again signals that the tonic of your minor chord is actually the 4th of a 7b9 chord.
Anyway, agree or disagree, I thought I'd provide a musical example and tweak it to see if I "get" your idea or not. Let me know....
In case you've never heard of that Oscar Peterson tune....
http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/window/ ... 07,00.html
It was one of the pieces I had to perform for my Grade 8 Royal Conservatory of Music examinations, and I love it.
http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/window/ ... 07,00.html
It was one of the pieces I had to perform for my Grade 8 Royal Conservatory of Music examinations, and I love it.
http://www.4shared.com/account/file/454 ... ore_1.html
Here's a sound file of a chart that never got played in public. We feared that the jazz police would send a death squad, and 'Trane's solo scored for vln, vla, and cello did not amuse the symphony guys.
Here's a sound file of a chart that never got played in public. We feared that the jazz police would send a death squad, and 'Trane's solo scored for vln, vla, and cello did not amuse the symphony guys.
10 {The artist formerly known as Bb}