Horizontal (River Tripping)
Moderators: bobappleton, sandywilliams
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An open letter from Alice Russell. June 21, 2011, Brookline, Massachusetts. 1. DO NOT make insulting, mean spirited remarks about anyone or their work; there are a plethora of sites where you can rant unfettered. If you attack someone personally, your comments will be removed. You can post it, but I'm not paying for it. Go elsewhere, and let those artists who are actually interested in discussion and learning have the floor. 2. There will be NO posting of or links to copyrighted material without permission of the copyright owner. That's the law. And if you respect the work of people who make meaningful contributions, you should have no problem following this policy. 3. I appreciate many of the postings from so many of you. Please don't feel you have to spend your time "defending" the LCC to those who come here with the express purpose of disproving it. George worked for decades to disprove it himself; if you know his music, there's no question that it has gravity. And a final word: George was famous for his refusal to lower his standards in all areas of his life, no matter the cost. He twice refused concerts of his music at Lincoln Center Jazz because of their early position on what was authentically jazz. So save any speculation about the level of him as an artist and a man. The quotes on our websites were not written by George; they were written by critics/writers/scholars/fans over many years. Sincerely, Alice
An open letter from Alice Russell. June 21, 2011, Brookline, Massachusetts. 1. DO NOT make insulting, mean spirited remarks about anyone or their work; there are a plethora of sites where you can rant unfettered. If you attack someone personally, your comments will be removed. You can post it, but I'm not paying for it. Go elsewhere, and let those artists who are actually interested in discussion and learning have the floor. 2. There will be NO posting of or links to copyrighted material without permission of the copyright owner. That's the law. And if you respect the work of people who make meaningful contributions, you should have no problem following this policy. 3. I appreciate many of the postings from so many of you. Please don't feel you have to spend your time "defending" the LCC to those who come here with the express purpose of disproving it. George worked for decades to disprove it himself; if you know his music, there's no question that it has gravity. And a final word: George was famous for his refusal to lower his standards in all areas of his life, no matter the cost. He twice refused concerts of his music at Lincoln Center Jazz because of their early position on what was authentically jazz. So save any speculation about the level of him as an artist and a man. The quotes on our websites were not written by George; they were written by critics/writers/scholars/fans over many years. Sincerely, Alice
Horizontal (River Tripping)
In lieu of Vol II, I have, in addition to major & blues scales, used the 'Chart A' scales as horizontal vehicles, and would like to dialogue with others who have considered this. For example, on Autumn Leaves (our chart is in Dminor), The AA&B sections are grounded in Bb Lydian. Moving 'outward', suggests some interesting alterations/substitutions. Under Lyd.Aug, raising the root of the Fmaj7 gives an F#-7(b5). On the Lyd.Dim pass, the Dmi7 morphs into a fresh sounding Db7(#5) (B=Cb), which lends itself to a 'Db bebop dominant' treatment. Consistent with GR's 'strong and wrong' (I'm paraphrasing) admonition, this is a Latin-Jazz vocal chart, juiced by the 'root-fifthiness' of the bass, and the guaguanco percussion. This also gives our meta-audiophillic vocalist an opportunity to hear-in some hidden crannies of the tune. Comments and (especially) criticisms (i.e., cognitive stimulation) welcomed.
10 {The artist formerly known as Bb}
it looks to me as if you are employing the Bb lydian chromatic scale as a CMG (conceptual modal genre) of the tonic F - there was a discussion of some length regarding this on a previous thread. i would consider using an F lydian chromatic scale in the situation you describe (i play this tune in a different key, but what the heck ;-)) and i believe this is known as "verticalized horizontal melody" in the text of the LCC. my understanding of this is that you are using scales normally considered for vertical melody in a horizontal situation. in addition to the F LC scale, i would be looking at D also as a possible lydian tonic; mostly, but not only because the Em7b5 A7(b9) resolution to the D minor chord seems to point to D as a "secondary" tonal center.
my thinking is to use any lydian tonic that jumps out at you as seems useful at the time - i call this the "aesthetic judgement" clause of the concept...
so you started with Bb for Autumn Leaves in the key of F/Dm; i say F and D are worth a try - i have a feeling that others will provide more suggestions and i look forward to hearing them.
p.s. there are two bobs on the forum now; i'll be mindful that i don't get you guys mixed up!
my thinking is to use any lydian tonic that jumps out at you as seems useful at the time - i call this the "aesthetic judgement" clause of the concept...
so you started with Bb for Autumn Leaves in the key of F/Dm; i say F and D are worth a try - i have a feeling that others will provide more suggestions and i look forward to hearing them.
p.s. there are two bobs on the forum now; i'll be mindful that i don't get you guys mixed up!
Last edited by dogbite on Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hmm. F Lydian...I'll try that. Bb LC was first choice since it fits the changes (Real Book) and tune perfectly in Dmin/Fmajor (which key is a better fit for my partner and vocalist (Annie). I try these concepts in workshop/rehearsal group settings and for writing arrangements. My primary giging instument is drums, but when playing vibes (formerly) and bass (recently) or exploring on piano, I find that I lack the vertical genius of a Hawkins or Coltrane or old NTSU buddy Billy Harper (who would run Slominsky in 12 keys before lunch); or the temperment to memorize thousands of patterns. Thus, horizontal thinking is a better fit. Your comment on "aesthetic judgement is well taken. Current pianist, Barry Velleman and former employer, Buddy Montgomery, are examples of musicians whose intuitions are the stuff upon which theories are built. (It occurs to me, a forum neophyte, that experiential narrative may be off task. If so, forgive me. Years of weaving stories, music theory and philosophy until the Mohitos run out, is a tough pattern to break.) I will hereafter sign as Bob B., appropriate on several levels, so not to be confused with Bob A. Thanks for the dialogue, Dogbite (I'd love to hear That story).
Bob B.
Bob B.
10 {The artist formerly known as Bb}
"It occurs to me, a forum neophyte, that experiential narrative may be off task. If so, forgive me. Years of weaving stories, music theory and philosophy until the Mohitos run out, is a tough pattern to break." - Bob B
i can only speak for myself; however, it is my belief that without real-life experiences, none of this has any meaning. so please share your experiences as you feel are appropriate and/or necessary to communicate what you are trying to say...
i agree with you about horizontal melody in that many of us who are not well schooled in vertical playing find our center in horizontal thinking - i, for example, primarily have a rock/pop background and classical training, which i believe to be based in a horizontal philosophy of composition and analysis. i can show this in my own music in that of approximately fifty hours of recorded music, i cannot point to any significant examples of vertical melody in my own improvised solos. sure enough, even though melodies (heads) written by me have examples of vertical tonal gravity, my playing is primarily horizontal in origin...
i am unsure if that's what you were getting at in your comment regarding horizontal melody, so correct me if i'm wrong about this. i guess what i'm trying to say is that i'm a horizontal player trying to discover, explore, and navigate the vertical musical universe with "skill and grace" in order to expand my melodic vocabulary. at least with the LCC in my toolbox, i now have the ability to know the difference, and potentially may have the ability to do something about it...
regarding the dogbite alias, no, i am not obsessed with the fear of being bitten by unruly pets, but it does make for a very cool logo and i do love animals :-)
woof
i can only speak for myself; however, it is my belief that without real-life experiences, none of this has any meaning. so please share your experiences as you feel are appropriate and/or necessary to communicate what you are trying to say...
i agree with you about horizontal melody in that many of us who are not well schooled in vertical playing find our center in horizontal thinking - i, for example, primarily have a rock/pop background and classical training, which i believe to be based in a horizontal philosophy of composition and analysis. i can show this in my own music in that of approximately fifty hours of recorded music, i cannot point to any significant examples of vertical melody in my own improvised solos. sure enough, even though melodies (heads) written by me have examples of vertical tonal gravity, my playing is primarily horizontal in origin...
i am unsure if that's what you were getting at in your comment regarding horizontal melody, so correct me if i'm wrong about this. i guess what i'm trying to say is that i'm a horizontal player trying to discover, explore, and navigate the vertical musical universe with "skill and grace" in order to expand my melodic vocabulary. at least with the LCC in my toolbox, i now have the ability to know the difference, and potentially may have the ability to do something about it...
regarding the dogbite alias, no, i am not obsessed with the fear of being bitten by unruly pets, but it does make for a very cool logo and i do love animals :-)
woof
"I am unsure if that's what you were getting at in your comment regarding horizontal melody, so correct me if i'm wrong about this. i guess what i'm trying to say is that i'm a horizontal player trying to discover, explore, and navigate the vertical musical universe with "skill and grace" in order to expand my melodic vocabulary."
Eloquently put. We are en clave.
I did not intend to imply that horizontal playing was the bastion of the unschooled. (May the spirit of Lester Young rip my heart out if I did.) Quite the opposite. A vignette: Sitting between sets with Buddy and bassist Jeff Chambers (brilliant!) and a then 20-something now (jazz-) world famous 'horn' player, who's confidentiality I will protect. He had just finished sitting in for at set. Asked for an assessment, Mr. M offered, 'You run changes as good as anyone I've heard, but I don't hear a line. There's got to be a line (gesturing through the air) running through your solo.' (The Master Class. A moment of Satori.) So, from my phenomenological vantage point, the most complete, cognitively-emotional satisfying solo is one that, having understood the (vertical) landscape (topographic map), has found a beautifully expresssive path through it. [Although the distinction is analytically indispensable, horizontal without vertical is impossible, not to mention 'depth' and time.] I am verging on logorrhea, but indulge a final clarification of my curiousity re: 'Dogbite.' Having been enculturated in my formative years in as a Jazz Musician ('East Coaster' The 'opposing gang' was the 'West Coasters'. Imagine "West Side Story" with one side armed with thick drumsticks and K-Zildian rivet cymbals as shields, facing on the 'play-ground' the other side wielding brushes and metronomes. Bizarre, yes, but an examplar of the dialectical nature of social change.) Our 'gang' cultural narrative was African-American-Sicilian-Hispanic (I was an ethnic anomoly, accepted because "Well, he can play." and "There's got to be some brother in there somewhere." "He's ok, that's Joey Z's body guard.") To the point, within this context, "Dogbite" would be conferred on the basis of a dental characteristic or a nickname-defining life event. The only other 'Dogbite' I knew was a guy who ran his car off the road avoiding a German Shepherd that wandered in his path. Having been stopped by a handy tree, he rolled out of his car, too shakened to stand. As he pulled himself up on his hands and knees the ungrateful hound ran up and bit him on the ***.
Thereupon and thereafter he became "Dogbite." A metaphor for life worthy of Camus. ..." but it does make for a very cool logo and i do love animals :-"...Elegant. jpg the logo to me, and I will have a t-shirt made for Dogbite's birthday. While obsessions and phobias are stuff of my day job, it didn't occur to me in your case. 8)
Bob B.
Eloquently put. We are en clave.
I did not intend to imply that horizontal playing was the bastion of the unschooled. (May the spirit of Lester Young rip my heart out if I did.) Quite the opposite. A vignette: Sitting between sets with Buddy and bassist Jeff Chambers (brilliant!) and a then 20-something now (jazz-) world famous 'horn' player, who's confidentiality I will protect. He had just finished sitting in for at set. Asked for an assessment, Mr. M offered, 'You run changes as good as anyone I've heard, but I don't hear a line. There's got to be a line (gesturing through the air) running through your solo.' (The Master Class. A moment of Satori.) So, from my phenomenological vantage point, the most complete, cognitively-emotional satisfying solo is one that, having understood the (vertical) landscape (topographic map), has found a beautifully expresssive path through it. [Although the distinction is analytically indispensable, horizontal without vertical is impossible, not to mention 'depth' and time.] I am verging on logorrhea, but indulge a final clarification of my curiousity re: 'Dogbite.' Having been enculturated in my formative years in as a Jazz Musician ('East Coaster' The 'opposing gang' was the 'West Coasters'. Imagine "West Side Story" with one side armed with thick drumsticks and K-Zildian rivet cymbals as shields, facing on the 'play-ground' the other side wielding brushes and metronomes. Bizarre, yes, but an examplar of the dialectical nature of social change.) Our 'gang' cultural narrative was African-American-Sicilian-Hispanic (I was an ethnic anomoly, accepted because "Well, he can play." and "There's got to be some brother in there somewhere." "He's ok, that's Joey Z's body guard.") To the point, within this context, "Dogbite" would be conferred on the basis of a dental characteristic or a nickname-defining life event. The only other 'Dogbite' I knew was a guy who ran his car off the road avoiding a German Shepherd that wandered in his path. Having been stopped by a handy tree, he rolled out of his car, too shakened to stand. As he pulled himself up on his hands and knees the ungrateful hound ran up and bit him on the ***.
Thereupon and thereafter he became "Dogbite." A metaphor for life worthy of Camus. ..." but it does make for a very cool logo and i do love animals :-"...Elegant. jpg the logo to me, and I will have a t-shirt made for Dogbite's birthday. While obsessions and phobias are stuff of my day job, it didn't occur to me in your case. 8)
Bob B.
Last edited by Bob on Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
10 {The artist formerly known as Bb}
I tried the F Lyd on Autumn Leaves (in d/F) and it works! I don't know why (sounds good aside) it works with those Bs against the Bbs. I'll have to absorb Pt.2 of recently acquired 4th ed. to find out. The power of the key signature? Perhaps, you can shed some light.
The great thing about standards is that if one can do something fresh, rhythmically, harmonically, or structurally; it is recognizable as such by the listener (e.g., Mozart's delightful deceptive cadences), whereas a new composition often has to be 'explained.'
Thanks Dogbite. (I love that.). [My 'handle' when sitting in with los hombres de la Salsa, is El Blanco, which, although it would have a positive connotation re: Santaria, acknowledges my perceived questionable credibility and is more flattering than the more precise appellation de el barrio. I'll spare you. The filter would snag anyway.]
Bob B. aka El Blanco
The great thing about standards is that if one can do something fresh, rhythmically, harmonically, or structurally; it is recognizable as such by the listener (e.g., Mozart's delightful deceptive cadences), whereas a new composition often has to be 'explained.'
Thanks Dogbite. (I love that.). [My 'handle' when sitting in with los hombres de la Salsa, is El Blanco, which, although it would have a positive connotation re: Santaria, acknowledges my perceived questionable credibility and is more flattering than the more precise appellation de el barrio. I'll spare you. The filter would snag anyway.]
Bob B. aka El Blanco
10 {The artist formerly known as Bb}
bob b,
i most certainly agree with you in that my commentary regarding horizontal melody was not meant to imply, in the least, that horizontal melody resided in "the bastion of the unschooled" - what i was getting at was perhaps more subtle: that as a guitar player, it has become obvious to me that other instrumentalists, such as woodwind players, seem to have more of a center in creating vertically derived melodies than the average guitarist because of several factors, not the least of which is the fact that playing arpeggios on the guitar is inherently difficult...
perhaps it is also due to the way that wind and/or brass instrumentalists are exposed to this kind of thinking (VTG) at an earlier stage of their musical development. others may have had a different experience regarding this, however, many years of teaching have shown me that guitarists are generally terrified of the rapidly changing conditions that vertical tonal gravity requires us to navigate.
btw, your dogbite story, bob b, is epic - i love it!
i most certainly agree with you in that my commentary regarding horizontal melody was not meant to imply, in the least, that horizontal melody resided in "the bastion of the unschooled" - what i was getting at was perhaps more subtle: that as a guitar player, it has become obvious to me that other instrumentalists, such as woodwind players, seem to have more of a center in creating vertically derived melodies than the average guitarist because of several factors, not the least of which is the fact that playing arpeggios on the guitar is inherently difficult...
perhaps it is also due to the way that wind and/or brass instrumentalists are exposed to this kind of thinking (VTG) at an earlier stage of their musical development. others may have had a different experience regarding this, however, many years of teaching have shown me that guitarists are generally terrified of the rapidly changing conditions that vertical tonal gravity requires us to navigate.
btw, your dogbite story, bob b, is epic - i love it!
I feared I was engendering that inference. Glad you like the epic story, but I think i'll use the pm to indulge my penchant for the tangential. As a novice bassist, albeit seasoned drummer, I am happy to hear from a seasoned guitarist that arppegios are difficult. At this stage of life, my practice time requires efficiency, so I warm up on the 11 LC scales in a key or two, then I dive into 'tunes.' I will mine all postings in search of threads from bass players. The LCC is a major motivation for the bassic adventure. I write these charts, and love the feeling of sitting at the 'center of gravity' in the bass chair. (Until the real bass monsters show up, then back to the drums.)
I'll run today's LC project past you later hoping for generous input. I'm doing a chart on Cancion del Fuego Fatuo (vocals in Spanish), and am working on LCing the improv changes, without messing up the authentic vibe. (Miles/Evans and Ray Barretto's arranger had their solutions, but some players love modal playing and others get bored, so I have to do this on several levels. I write for people rather than the instrument.). A parting word on George Russell: I have a passion for fundamental 'possibility' and I put Mr. Russell in the same 'folder' as Darwin, Heisenberg, Einstein, Freud(?), and the Buddha. The 'folder's label is WOW. OK, it's crunch time (kids first day of school, a new crop of residents/interns, a syllabus to complete, and a full day of casting out demons. The LCC has not solved the problem of the 'day job.' (Perhaps a grant or lotto ticker.)
Regards,
Bob B.
P.S., The late composer John Downey, named one of his kids Lydia and wrote a piece with the same name. I wonder if Mr. Russell got any royalities for West Side Story.
I'll run today's LC project past you later hoping for generous input. I'm doing a chart on Cancion del Fuego Fatuo (vocals in Spanish), and am working on LCing the improv changes, without messing up the authentic vibe. (Miles/Evans and Ray Barretto's arranger had their solutions, but some players love modal playing and others get bored, so I have to do this on several levels. I write for people rather than the instrument.). A parting word on George Russell: I have a passion for fundamental 'possibility' and I put Mr. Russell in the same 'folder' as Darwin, Heisenberg, Einstein, Freud(?), and the Buddha. The 'folder's label is WOW. OK, it's crunch time (kids first day of school, a new crop of residents/interns, a syllabus to complete, and a full day of casting out demons. The LCC has not solved the problem of the 'day job.' (Perhaps a grant or lotto ticker.)
Regards,
Bob B.
P.S., The late composer John Downey, named one of his kids Lydia and wrote a piece with the same name. I wonder if Mr. Russell got any royalities for West Side Story.
10 {The artist formerly known as Bb}
Autumn Leaves
Has anyone else discovered that in Bach's Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue in Dm also yields the tritone interval and contains the entire melody from "Autumn Leaves"?
I believe Dave Brubeck explores this in his Chromatic Fantasy Sonata, 5 Pieces from Two-Part Adventures.
When I first learned Bach's piece I noticed how he used the chromatic scale to make melodies in a vertical fashion. I noticed the similarity at a very young age, and can now see how many of the Lydian concepts were inspired by the great composers.
I believe Dave Brubeck explores this in his Chromatic Fantasy Sonata, 5 Pieces from Two-Part Adventures.
When I first learned Bach's piece I noticed how he used the chromatic scale to make melodies in a vertical fashion. I noticed the similarity at a very young age, and can now see how many of the Lydian concepts were inspired by the great composers.
Re: Horizontal (River Tripping)
Has anyone else discovered that J.S. Bach's Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue in Dm also yields the tritone interval and contains the entire melody from the verse of "Autumn Leaves"?
I believe Dave Brubeck explores this in his Chromatic Fantasy Sonata, 5 Pieces from Two-Part Adventures.
When I first learned Bach's piece I noticed how he used the chromatic scale to make melodies in a vertical fashion. I noticed the similarity at a very young age, and can now see how many of the Lydian concepts were inspired by the great composers.
I believe Dave Brubeck explores this in his Chromatic Fantasy Sonata, 5 Pieces from Two-Part Adventures.
When I first learned Bach's piece I noticed how he used the chromatic scale to make melodies in a vertical fashion. I noticed the similarity at a very young age, and can now see how many of the Lydian concepts were inspired by the great composers.
Bob wrote:In lieu of Vol II, I have, in addition to major & blues scales, used the 'Chart A' scales as horizontal vehicles, and would like to dialogue with others who have considered this. For example, on Autumn Leaves (our chart is in Dminor), The AA&B sections are grounded in Bb Lydian. Moving 'outward', suggests some interesting alterations/substitutions. Under Lyd.Aug, raising the root of the Fmaj7 gives an F#-7(b5). On the Lyd.Dim pass, the Dmi7 morphs into a fresh sounding Db7(#5) (B=Cb), which lends itself to a 'Db bebop dominant' treatment. Consistent with GR's 'strong and wrong' (I'm paraphrasing) admonition, this is a Latin-Jazz vocal chart, juiced by the 'root-fifthiness' of the bass, and the guaguanco percussion. This also gives our meta-audiophillic vocalist an opportunity to hear-in some hidden crannies of the tune. Comments and (especially) criticisms (i.e., cognitive stimulation) welcomed.
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