Interval tonics in I:9 p.6 is purely based on 5ths

[chespernevins]

Hi all,

I think I may be in danger of stating what is obvious to some here so please indulge me while I get my thoughts straight. I feel Sandy has posted the answer to some of the questions - including some of mine - about the Interval Tonic chart when he reminded us:

[quote]Thoughts about interval tonics and minor chords:
The new edition doesn’t have the elaborate interval chart contained in the 1959 edition. There is no mention of primes in the new edition. Now, these are simply called ‘tonic tones’ (p.7) or the ‘Lydian Tonic’.
The fifth is what GR calls the “cornerstone intervalâ€

[chespernevins]

Bob said in a previous thread regarding interval tonics:

Example I:9 shows up after the creation of the LCC and is justified by the order of scales as a result of the tonal gravity scheme, not prior to it as inferred from the caption "interval tonic justification of the Lydian scale.' That is, the interval tonic scheme is a derivative of the concept.

I started this new topic to try and re-focus on this idea.

I would disagree that Example I:9 is justified by the order of scales (I assume we are talking about "Chart A").

Example I:9, from re-reading the text, seems to be solely based on the 7 note ladder of fifths.

The fundamental premise of the Concept seems to be the tonal gravity of the fifth and by extension the ladder of fifths. Example I:9 is just another way to look at the tonal gravity of the ladder of fifths and comes before the Western Tonal Order and the Member scales.

[Bob]

The relevant text in PH Craft of Music Composition V1 pp 68-79. See what you make of it.

"The fundamental premise of the Concept seems to be the tonal gravity of the fifth and by extension the ladder of fifths. Example I:9 is just another way to look at the tonal gravity of the ladder of fifths and comes before the Western Tonal Order and the Member scales."

I followed your logic, but it lead to the opposite conclusion from what I expected. Go figure.

For clarity's sake, how does the the 'ladder of fifths' come before the Western Tonal Order (tempered tuning et al)?

[sandywilliams]

Does the last paragraph on page 16 explains this? This section explains the logic behind the Western Order.
The ladder of fifths is brought up initially to describe the primary order of the 7-tone Lydian scale, not the 12-tone LCC chromatic scale.

[Bob]

I'm going to take some time with this. (Right now I'm re-reading Russell, 1964, pages xxvii-xxxviii in my first edition appendix, and just going through it all again.) I don't have to tell you that the LCC is internally consistent, not to mention 'aurally true.' (But, demonstrating fundamental assumptions outside of a theory is always a problem. (That buzz-killer Godel, again) e.g., Russell & Whitehead trying to prove 1+1=2 in the Principia.) The minor third, minor triad issue is puzzling. To paraphrase PH, slide your finger on a (fretless) string instrument): Where does the minor third end and the major third begin? At what point does the tonic flip, (if in fact it does.)

If there's nothing good on tv tonight, here's a distraction:
http://consc.net/online/

[chespernevins]

(But, demonstrating fundamental assumptions outside of a theory is always a problem. (That buzz-killer Godel, again)

I read Godel about 23 years ago, and I do remember some basics, but I can't discuss the finer points.

A premise like the tonal gravity of the fifth is a fair enough place to start, right? Then extending that to a ladder of fifths I can follow. Even limiting the ladder of fifths to 7 notes to discuss the difference in a lydian scale and a major scale is ok with me. (This could be a topic in itself).

I'm even ok with this interval chart which says that the tonic of any interval in the ladder of fifths is the lowest tone. (And therefore, the F in the C major scale is actually the tonic of an F lydian scale). But of course this chart is only discussing the 7 tones in the ladder of fifths.

So my first point is this - all of this stuff above seems internally consistent with the original premise of the gravity of a fifth.

When chapter 2 begins - The Lydian Chromatic Scale - and The Western Order of Tonal Gravity - this does not seem to DIRECTLY, anyway, build on the ladder of fifths.

This is where I assume that the aesthetic judgement of the artist GR starts organizing his palette with the colors he wants to use. THis is where he bases his choices of his organizational system on past history - western music, yes, but also HIS individual understanding of western music (how could it be otherwise?).

And in the sense that these scales and concepts of the Lydian Chromatic Scale are an artistic creation, we can take it with that perspective in mind and may find that there is little absolute truth in it except for years of what has come before and the mind of a very good composer.

I actually quit a class given by George the first time I took it because he presented the ladder of fifths as a scientific certainty. And then the next class he told us that he skips a fifth to get the Western Order. I so believed in what he was saying (and why not? I was a music student and he my teacher) that the break from the ladder of fifths made no sense to me! But since then, I have benefited a lot from the Concept - but I've had to take some of this with a tiny grain of salt to move on to some of the good stuff. But I find any theory that I delve into has its leaps of faith, its footnotes and exceptions!

This is in no way saying I want to dilute our discussion on the intricacies and details - or comparisons with other great theories!

OK, 'nuf said. Later!

[Bob]

I agree with this.
RE: diluting the conversation with comparisions to other great theorists.

One way to look at a thesis, is to propose an antithesis. The dialectic seems to have taken a few folks, including myself, deeper into the LCC, which, to me, is a good thing. If this were a Hindemith forum, one could point out a possible fatal flaw in Hindemith, but it isn't, so....

"Nuff, said."? I feel a Coda coming.

[chespernevins]

"Nuff, said."? I feel a Coda coming.

Hah ha! Like Jack Teagarden said at the end of a song - kinda hesitantly as a few beats went by - "I'm gonna take a trambone coda...."

CN said:

This is in no way saying I want to dilute our discussion on the intricacies and
details - or comparisons with other great theories!

Bob said:

RE: diluting the conversation with comparisions to other great theorists.

One way to look at a thesis, is to propose an antithesis. The dialectic seems to have taken a few folks, including myself, deeper into the LCC, which, to me, is a good thing. If this were a Hindemith forum, one could point out a possible fatal flaw in Hindemith, but it isn't, so....

You and I are in agreement. I was trying to say that I do not want to dilute our discussions or stop the comparisions - they are great!

[Bob]

Here's an exchange with a composer-theorist (who likes his privacy, hence the ....):

"Hey .....,
It was great to hang with you. I got a question. What is
the tonic of a minor 3rd, and why? Turns out this is a
big controversy on the George Russell forum.
Bob"

"Well in set theoretic terms a minor triad is the inversion
of a maj triad-- ie C, E-flat, G inverted is C, A, F. The
argument centers on the acoustic fact that there is no minor
third in the first few harmonics of any fundamental. So a
pitch (class) a minor third below a given pitch () cannot be
understood as a true acoustic root even though pragmatically
C is the root both of CEG and CEflatG. There is also the
issue of the aeolian or natural minor being a derived
structure as in major scales and minor modes. I don't
remember enough of medieval theory to be more precise.

....."

Note, this is from the perspective of set theory.
(What's that I hear? Is that Bob A. blowing into a paper bag?)
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[bobappleton]

okay, okay

1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13,


and


i almost forgot...


life sucks and then you teach



wait... wait...

the news of the hour, as dogbite reminded me earlier today, is that there is a mid-conversion of a pc to a mac on the aaj forum under the thread maj7b5... on www.allaboutjazz.com forums / Music Theory and Analysis

if you go there, please stay cool...

[dogbite]

rappleton's back! good to hear from you again...

the following is an excerpt from a conversation about lydian, modal, and interval tonics. the views posted here represent the ramblings of the author (me) and may not necessarily represent the official voice of the LCC (mr. russell):

begin excerpt

"So how about the hypothesis that a minor triad does indeed have two tonics: 1) a Modal Tonic, which is identical to the chord root (fundamental bass tone) AND 2) a Lydian Tonic, which is further defined as the one tone in a chord from which a chord exhibits its character, its personality, its essence…

And it is the Lydian Tonic from which we will construct the scales for use in Vertical Tonal Gravity. And it is the Modal Tonic from which we will construct the scales for use in Horizontal Tonal Gravity because the Lydian Tonic is the one tone from which a chord derives its “identityâ€