Reread the histories of Western music in the 1st. edition and the 4th. The 'answer' is not there.
Carl Gustav Jung said, "If it works, it's true."
Interval chart and Outgoing Vertical Melody
Moderators: bobappleton, sandywilliams
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An open letter from Alice Russell. June 21, 2011, Brookline, Massachusetts. 1. DO NOT make insulting, mean spirited remarks about anyone or their work; there are a plethora of sites where you can rant unfettered. If you attack someone personally, your comments will be removed. You can post it, but I'm not paying for it. Go elsewhere, and let those artists who are actually interested in discussion and learning have the floor. 2. There will be NO posting of or links to copyrighted material without permission of the copyright owner. That's the law. And if you respect the work of people who make meaningful contributions, you should have no problem following this policy. 3. I appreciate many of the postings from so many of you. Please don't feel you have to spend your time "defending" the LCC to those who come here with the express purpose of disproving it. George worked for decades to disprove it himself; if you know his music, there's no question that it has gravity. And a final word: George was famous for his refusal to lower his standards in all areas of his life, no matter the cost. He twice refused concerts of his music at Lincoln Center Jazz because of their early position on what was authentically jazz. So save any speculation about the level of him as an artist and a man. The quotes on our websites were not written by George; they were written by critics/writers/scholars/fans over many years. Sincerely, Alice
An open letter from Alice Russell. June 21, 2011, Brookline, Massachusetts. 1. DO NOT make insulting, mean spirited remarks about anyone or their work; there are a plethora of sites where you can rant unfettered. If you attack someone personally, your comments will be removed. You can post it, but I'm not paying for it. Go elsewhere, and let those artists who are actually interested in discussion and learning have the floor. 2. There will be NO posting of or links to copyrighted material without permission of the copyright owner. That's the law. And if you respect the work of people who make meaningful contributions, you should have no problem following this policy. 3. I appreciate many of the postings from so many of you. Please don't feel you have to spend your time "defending" the LCC to those who come here with the express purpose of disproving it. George worked for decades to disprove it himself; if you know his music, there's no question that it has gravity. And a final word: George was famous for his refusal to lower his standards in all areas of his life, no matter the cost. He twice refused concerts of his music at Lincoln Center Jazz because of their early position on what was authentically jazz. So save any speculation about the level of him as an artist and a man. The quotes on our websites were not written by George; they were written by critics/writers/scholars/fans over many years. Sincerely, Alice
So, what I've gathered, regarding the minor 3rd interval, is that in the first edition Russell does not have an interval tonic scheme, but it shows up in the 4th edition.
Example I:9 shows up after the creation of the LCC and is justified by the order of scales as a result of the tonal gravity scheme, not prior to it as inferred from the caption "interval tonic justification of the Lydian scale.' That is, the interval tonic scheme is a derivative of the concept.
Hindemith derives his scheme from an analysis of the overtone series and combination tones, from which he derives his theory. PH's discussion of interval roots, especially the minor third and minor triad is too complex and nuanced to repeat here, especially sans authorization from the Hindemith Foundation. Note that PH explicitly cites the difficulty of analyzing the minor triad.
What's especially interesting to me, is that GR and PH are both dealing with what GR calls tonal gravity. (As does Schenker, Forte, Schoenberg, Miller, albeit for different purposes)
I hope no one is offended by my placing George Russell in a pantheon of polytheism, but I'm not a monotheistic absolutist. As a "phenomenologist" I find multiple perspectives from which to look at the same phenomena, that are equally 'true.' Not to be confused with relativism, which might find every perspective equally true. Not that anyone asked or should care, but this forum can at times feel rather partisan. (Some replies sound like "LCCTO, Love It or Leave It." Am I violating the patriot act?) For the most part, we're all trying to understand and explain and solve problems of musical expression.
Example I:9 shows up after the creation of the LCC and is justified by the order of scales as a result of the tonal gravity scheme, not prior to it as inferred from the caption "interval tonic justification of the Lydian scale.' That is, the interval tonic scheme is a derivative of the concept.
Hindemith derives his scheme from an analysis of the overtone series and combination tones, from which he derives his theory. PH's discussion of interval roots, especially the minor third and minor triad is too complex and nuanced to repeat here, especially sans authorization from the Hindemith Foundation. Note that PH explicitly cites the difficulty of analyzing the minor triad.
What's especially interesting to me, is that GR and PH are both dealing with what GR calls tonal gravity. (As does Schenker, Forte, Schoenberg, Miller, albeit for different purposes)
I hope no one is offended by my placing George Russell in a pantheon of polytheism, but I'm not a monotheistic absolutist. As a "phenomenologist" I find multiple perspectives from which to look at the same phenomena, that are equally 'true.' Not to be confused with relativism, which might find every perspective equally true. Not that anyone asked or should care, but this forum can at times feel rather partisan. (Some replies sound like "LCCTO, Love It or Leave It." Am I violating the patriot act?) For the most part, we're all trying to understand and explain and solve problems of musical expression.
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sandywilliams
- Posts: 201
- Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:17 pm
Please forgive us for sounding too much like fans. True be told,I am a fan of GR's music. Your critical comments are welcome and they inspire us to study the LCC book some more.
Have you checked the LCC thread on the All About Jazz site? It is unbelievable how so many folks just flat-out( and ignorantly) dismiss it. Their loss.
Have you checked the LCC thread on the All About Jazz site? It is unbelievable how so many folks just flat-out( and ignorantly) dismiss it. Their loss.
i am in agreement with sandy here about a couple of key points. as "fans" of the LCC we stand in danger of either:
1) "preaching to the choir" or
2) discouraging those with legitimate concerns from asking probing questions about what is by (i hope) mutual agreement fairly difficult language.
the forum which sandy is referring to is highly illuminating, especially in how the incomprehensible dialogue points out the need for all of us to be humble and kind in our responses to these probing questions and not get caught up in our egos and preconceptions.
the threads that have exhibited so much activity this week have (again, i hope) inspired many of us to study further and to test our own understanding of the LCC as well as the established writings of other theorists, such as paul hindemith and mark levine - and a long list of others far too numerous to give them all due credit.
however, i feel compelled to point out that this is a lydian chromatic concept forum and it is a given that everyone who is paying attention to these dialogues has either read the book (either in its present form or earlier editions) or is interested in finding out more about the LCC. i don't believe that there is any inherent conflict between the teachings of george russell and his contemporaries - only that "many of the truths we cling to are dependent on our own point of view."
the precepts of "lydian tonic" and "modal tonic", as well as lydian tonic interval and interval tonic have caused quite a stir here lately - it looked like a simple enough question at first; however, maybe its not simple at all, or maybe its so simple we can't see straight.
i do not know, but i look forward to hearing what everybody has to say about it...
1) "preaching to the choir" or
2) discouraging those with legitimate concerns from asking probing questions about what is by (i hope) mutual agreement fairly difficult language.
the forum which sandy is referring to is highly illuminating, especially in how the incomprehensible dialogue points out the need for all of us to be humble and kind in our responses to these probing questions and not get caught up in our egos and preconceptions.
the threads that have exhibited so much activity this week have (again, i hope) inspired many of us to study further and to test our own understanding of the LCC as well as the established writings of other theorists, such as paul hindemith and mark levine - and a long list of others far too numerous to give them all due credit.
however, i feel compelled to point out that this is a lydian chromatic concept forum and it is a given that everyone who is paying attention to these dialogues has either read the book (either in its present form or earlier editions) or is interested in finding out more about the LCC. i don't believe that there is any inherent conflict between the teachings of george russell and his contemporaries - only that "many of the truths we cling to are dependent on our own point of view."
the precepts of "lydian tonic" and "modal tonic", as well as lydian tonic interval and interval tonic have caused quite a stir here lately - it looked like a simple enough question at first; however, maybe its not simple at all, or maybe its so simple we can't see straight.
i do not know, but i look forward to hearing what everybody has to say about it...
i am (almost) embarrassed - my last post, upon further examination seemed to contain a variation of "can't we all get along?"
yuk!
however, sandy, in a pm, directed me to another thread in "that other forum" where the need for civility becomes apparent beyond belief. i will leave it to sandy the question of whether or not to direct the participants of this forum directly to the posts in question at "that other forum", since i would not presume to, indirectly or otherwise, advertise another site which may have dubious, at best, probative value.
i do find interesting in these posts here the way in which we, to varying degrees, look at the LCC through our previous experiences and knowledge. andy wasserman, in his forward to the new edition, implores us to examine this material from a "state of receptivity", so that we may study the lydian chromatic concept without any "pre-existing" (a priori) points of view. i must often remind myself to do so and have found that i am always rewarded by doing so.
i still feel that that the query regarding interval tonics is a legitimate concern, since there is no obvious reason that theories posed by reasonable theorists such as hindemith and russell should be in conflict with each other.
i don't know if my "explanation" (that the confusion regarding interval tonics may be illuminated by the examination of the true meanings of "lydian tonic" and "modal tonic") has found any resonance here; however, it is entirely possible that insufficient time has passed to allow for any responses to be formulated. i should feel content to just observe the forum and see what happens; however, in my own defence, it is not in my nature to merely "sit back and enjoy the ride" or "shut up and wait"...
happy weekend everyone and enjoy that extra hour!
yuk!
however, sandy, in a pm, directed me to another thread in "that other forum" where the need for civility becomes apparent beyond belief. i will leave it to sandy the question of whether or not to direct the participants of this forum directly to the posts in question at "that other forum", since i would not presume to, indirectly or otherwise, advertise another site which may have dubious, at best, probative value.
i do find interesting in these posts here the way in which we, to varying degrees, look at the LCC through our previous experiences and knowledge. andy wasserman, in his forward to the new edition, implores us to examine this material from a "state of receptivity", so that we may study the lydian chromatic concept without any "pre-existing" (a priori) points of view. i must often remind myself to do so and have found that i am always rewarded by doing so.
i still feel that that the query regarding interval tonics is a legitimate concern, since there is no obvious reason that theories posed by reasonable theorists such as hindemith and russell should be in conflict with each other.
i don't know if my "explanation" (that the confusion regarding interval tonics may be illuminated by the examination of the true meanings of "lydian tonic" and "modal tonic") has found any resonance here; however, it is entirely possible that insufficient time has passed to allow for any responses to be formulated. i should feel content to just observe the forum and see what happens; however, in my own defence, it is not in my nature to merely "sit back and enjoy the ride" or "shut up and wait"...
happy weekend everyone and enjoy that extra hour!
As a fan of George Russell's composition and LCCTO since the 59 version, I appreciate Sandy, Dogbite, and Chesper's willingness and ability to engage in a reasoned dialogue. It's taking me deeper into the latest edition. There's much in this interchange to digest. For me, Russell, Hindemith, and Ron Miller are indispensible parts of a 'canon' and not in essential conflict. (Hindemith's VI is my LCC V2. The chord sequence diagram on this site is very interesting).
I think I saw part of the AAJ bog (spelling intentional) on some bass guitar site. Some folks feel threatened when they don't understand something. Freud dubbed it 'castration anxiety.'
Thanks, guys.
Bob
I think I saw part of the AAJ bog (spelling intentional) on some bass guitar site. Some folks feel threatened when they don't understand something. Freud dubbed it 'castration anxiety.'
Thanks, guys.
Bob
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chespernevins
- Posts: 368
- Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:34 am
I jumped into a Concept debate on yet another jazz list (different from the one mentioned above) and was floored by the hostile, "hate mail" that I got from a few members. And believe me, it was not my delivery - this attitude was towards the Concept and I was simply the messenger.
So this forum is extremely valuable as a place to discuss some of the finer points of the Concept without having to engage in the politics.
I like digging for the deep underlying fundamental truths, and I also like to stop worrying about them sometimes and just see what good musical ideas I can generate from a system even if that system isn't totally scientifically flawless. Sometimes experience using a system in this way will clarify a truth later.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to future conversations!
So this forum is extremely valuable as a place to discuss some of the finer points of the Concept without having to engage in the politics.
I like digging for the deep underlying fundamental truths, and I also like to stop worrying about them sometimes and just see what good musical ideas I can generate from a system even if that system isn't totally scientifically flawless. Sometimes experience using a system in this way will clarify a truth later.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to future conversations!
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chespernevins
- Posts: 368
- Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:34 am
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ConsensualSax
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:50 pm
Re:
Ok I kinda stumbled upon a pattern when whilst reading the introductory chapters of the book at I:9 where george points out that you can form all twelve intervals in relation to the (lydian) tonic (but not from an ionian tonic) and what are generally percieved to be the minor/flat/diminished intervals appear to be below tonic and the major/(sharp?) tones. That is to say to chromatically ascend or decend the regular intervals it alternates from below the tonic and on top each time and the more closely upon examaning it the nature of the intervals are somewhat greater revealed. Some observations being that;Bob wrote:Terms (GR).
GR presents his chart, regarding which the following questions remain:
-Why is a Maj 3rd root down, while the Min 3rd root up?
-Similarly with Maj 2nd v. Min 2nd.
-Why is the Maj 3rd root down, while the Min 3rd root up?
-Similarly, Maj v. Min 7th, Maj v Min 6th.
If someone can help me out here or just point out a reference, that would be appreciated.
The fifth has to be above the tonic and likewise the fourth below in the sequence of chromatic intervals in relation to the lydian tonic
The major third is above the tonic and the minor third below
The tritone tonic is below?!
Also looking at at it another way from 8/1 , 7 / b2 , b7 / 2 , 6 / m3 , +5 / 3 , 5 / 4 , #4 , 4 / 5 , 3 / +5 , m3 / 6 , 2 / b7 , b2 / 7 , 1/8
8/1 < > x < > 1/8
is interesting as the tritone is one its own - one truly is an odd number, and is as we all know symmetrical yet the pairings are and have always been interesting, but seeing how a b7 and b2 is below tonic and major seconds and sevemths above shows how these intervals want to resolve but then the each hrow of one half of each pair are inverted to get its parterner interval i.e play a major second down from root to get the b7 as you can see by relationships between mirrored intevals from either side of the tritone center.
there is almost an outgoing / ingoing and ingoing / outgoing relationship by the arrows, between the perfect intervals and the larger/smaller combinations I think...
You can also see how the major seventh interval in adjacent to the the octave intervals both sides hence leading tone.
Im unsure if the chart you are reffering to is the same as the one I am. I'm sure there are other things to spot and I'm unsure if this even answers your question but its geting late here...anyway I plan to be returning here for over the coming while to resurface some old threads and start a new one or two as I progress through my journy intergrating the concept into my being and doings.