Interval chart and Outgoing Vertical Melody

chespernevins · Post by **chespernevins** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:17 pm

This will be obvious to most of you already, I think, but it was a small breakthrough for me...

But I was reviewing the interval chart and the tonal gravity of each interval in relation to the LT as mentioned in previous posts.

Vertically speaking, I am pretty comfortable in using the more outoing member scales (12 TO) and sometimes use other Lydian keys within a given Lydian Universe (ie, E lydian over C lydian, etc.). (My terminology should be more precise here.)

But I've never been able to do much with an intervallically based Outgoing Vertical melody for any length of time within an improvisation without resorting to randomness, which I don't want.

So I wrote a series of minor thirds and half steps in D lydian, ranging from a 7TO minor third to a 12 TO minor third, and then some more going slowly back to ingoing intervals. I ended up with a decent intervallic melody than only went as far out as I wanted it. This melody was free of the strict use of member scales but was still very controlled.

Anyway, I feel like I can go a bit further with this now - becoming more aware of intervals within the line to break out of the usual melodic shapes/melodies/scales.

Does anyone else out there use outgoing vertical melodies in improvisation and feel like they have a good amount of control over them (especially in terms of relation to the LT)?

Thanks,

Jason

chespernevins · Post by **chespernevins** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:10 pm

Is atonality your goal ?

Thanks for the question - and it's a good question. I guess I'll reply on the board - maybe it'll be of general interest to a few. Sorry to the rest.

No, atonality isn't my goal. At one time I would have said yes, and I tried (unsuccessfully) to do that.

But nowadays, as far as improvisation goes, the closest examples I can think of would be the lines of the modern day Bob Brookmeyer. Paul Bley playing on standards. The melody to Ezzthetic by George has held a lot of fascination for me. A smattering of Eric Dolphy's outness (although with closer intervals by necessity) and the outgoing sequences of Oliver Nelson on Blues and the Abstract truth. *Only* Jimmy Giuffre 3 (with Paul and Steve) lines all the time would be too atonal, although I love his music.

What I want to achieve is an ability to be as harmonically and melodically free as I want while still maintaining "flowing", "melodic" statements over a song form. I have resisted going to chord superimposition like John Coltrane type subs, looking for a more "melodic" solution, but maybe I should not be closed minded to this. I have a sense that I want to extend beyond the explicit vertical member scales and overlays of flat or sharp lying lydian universes. I have had a *little* success in this general direction with various horizontal melody solutions, but sometimes I get limited results.

Thanks for indulging me.

Post by **sandywilliams** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:53 pm

That's a nice interview. I need to listen to it again. I was trying to find a transcript of it online and stumbled across another JC interview for download!
https://mmm1932.dulles19-verio.com/slou ... hp?id=1161

chespernevins · Post by **chespernevins** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:47 am

Yes, nice - and apropos. Just keep trying all the devices until the ear is familiar enough to find the best way through.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:42 am

Hindemith has a lot to say about using intervals, based on each interval's tonic, in a chromatic tonal environment. Here is a link for a nice summary. The related text is Hindemith's Craft of Musical Composition Vol I.
http://www-pub.naz.edu:9000/~jturner9/E ... xpSyl.html

By taking of the 'acoustic tonic' of melodic passages and 'root progressions' one use the whole chromatic environment and avoid sounding 'atonal' if that is one's aim.

Coltrane, Brecker, Bergonzi would use patterns, e.g., 1235 with alterations, to go 'outside' but sounding "right" based on the intrinsic strength of the perfect fifth.

Specifically related to jazz, you may have already checked out the material on http://www.aebersold.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc

This is a big topic and an important one.

chespernevins · Post by **chespernevins** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:27 am

Bob,

Great stuff!

Hindemith has a lot to say about using intervals, based on each interval's tonic, in a chromatic tonal environment. Here is a link for a nice summary. The related text is Hindemith's Craft of Musical Composition Vol I.
http://www-pub.naz.edu:9000/~jturner9/E ... xpSyl.html

>By taking of the 'acoustic tonic' of melodic passages and 'root progressions' one use the whole chromatic environment and avoid sounding 'atonal' if that is one's aim.

This is obviously a huge topic. I can't even formulate a good question about it except maybe wondering out loud where would I start? Would it be Hindemith's book? Is it pretty readable, or would it be a huge undertaking?

Interesting how some of the summary of the intervals, etc, differs from George's.

As far as the Jamey Aebersold stuff, I have investigated Dave Liebman's chromatic methods somewhat.

Is there a particular book from Aebersold you would recommend?

Thanks,

Jason

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:41 pm

Hindemith's book is more than a tad arcane. The linked guide likely has more than enough information related to your question. The primary insights are in Hindemith's Series 1 & 2 interval figures. If root progressions or a melodic phrase sounds off, often what you are hearing is an unplanned or unanticipated dissonance or tritone, or perhaps the intensity of a sequence of voicings is off balance. If you analyze the 'acoustic tonic,' based on Hindemith's series', of a troubling melodic phrase or chord voicing, the problem often reveals itself. For example, a chord progression may go awry because what one intends as the chord 'root' is not the bass note but actually in an upper voice, such as the upper tone of a fourth. A note of caution, if one gets to pedantic about 'correcting' a piece, the result may be logical, but vanilla.

Re: Russell, his Interval Tonic chart on p.6 of the current LCC, is the same as Hindemith's Series 2, except that Hindemith would not assign an unambiguous tonic to a tritone. I don't view these theories as being in conflict, but true from a given perspective. If this reply is also arcane, perhaps wiser minds than mine will weigh in.

chespernevins · Post by **chespernevins** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:50 pm

Re: Russell, his Interval Tonic chart on p.6 of the current LCC, is the same as Hindemith's Series 2, except that Hindemith would not assign an unambiguous tonic to a tritone. I don't view these theories as being in conflict, but true from a given perspective.

Yes, series 2 is pretty much similar to the Concept. Series 1 is a little bit more elusive to me. Interesting that Series 1 says "this order ranks the intervals according to increasing tonal remoteness". This sounds similar to George's 7 tone order through 12 tone order ranking, but is different.

Thanks for the tip on this article. I will spend more time with it.

Jason

chespernevins · Post by **chespernevins** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:24 pm

Re: Russell, his Interval Tonic chart on p.6 of the current LCC, is the same as Hindemith's Series 2, except that Hindemith would not assign an unambiguous tonic to a tritone.

Hmmmm, now looking at George's ExampleI:9 on p.6, I am not so sure these series are so similar. For example, look at the interval of a minor 7th (D-C). George labels the tonic of this interval as C. Series 2 labels the root note of this interval as D. There are other examples too.

I suspect I am not fully understanding this yet - I will shut up until I've digested this article more fully.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:18 pm

You're right. Good eye. I glanced and assumed sameness. I would hate to think either Hindemith or Russell based their theories on a house of cards (Love them both). Example I:9 does appear internally inconsistent, but I shall research further before jumping to another hasty conclusion. This may be related to p12-13 where the cycle has to go from #IV to #V in order to make bII show up at the end. Very interesting Dr. Watson. Thanks.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:16 am

I don't think this is going to be resolved by arguments from analogy. Fortunately, PH & GR agree on the 5th and the 4th, its inversion. (5th-root down, 4th root up). They also agree on the primacy of the major and minor triads. So far, so good. It is clear to the ear, that the C major 13 (#11) sounds more stable than the same chord with a natural 4th (in a 'tonal' context). The natural 4th. gives the chord an Ionian sound that works in a modal rather than tonal situation.
PH & GR start to differ. PH proceeds by using the 1st 7 tones of the overtone series and combination tones, while GR stacks 5ths. Herein may be why they arrive at different conclusions regarding interval tonics. (Pianists and string players might engage in a dialectic at this point)

Some questions I pose to myself regarding Ex. I:9 (to be further considered post day job):
-Why is a Maj 3rd root down, while the Min 3rd root up?
-Similarly with Maj 2nd v. Min 2nd.
-Why is the Maj 3rd root down, while the Min 3rd root up?
-Similarly, Maj v. Min 7th, Maj v Min 6th.
-If one follow GR, is the 'root' of a minor triad the b3rd?

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:48 am

Note to self: Don't post a reply over morning coffee.

Some questions I pose to myself regarding Ex. I:9 (to be further considered post day job):
-Why is a Maj 7th root down, while the Min 7th root up?
-Similarly with Maj 2nd v. Min 2nd.
-Why is the Maj 3rd root down, while the Min 3rd root up?
-Similarly, Maj v Min 6th.
-Is not the root of a tritone equivocal?

Differences in intent: GR- Vertical Tonal Gravity acheived, in part, by a heirarchy of scales (Chart A)
PH - Intergrated 'vertical and horizontal' 'tonal gravity' toward managing tonality in the chromatic scale as a whole.

I take responsibility for typos (a touch of ADD?)

Post by **bobappleton** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:38 am

i must agree with mother - the forum is sounding pretty good these days.

both of these coltrane interviews are great. the first one, i think, is on the miles davis double cd from scandinavia where coltrane and sonny stitt share the tour. and the second i hadn't heard before - after 45 minutes you hear him say he didn't know the tape was running.

"taking it from the source" comes up with unexpected information because discovery isn't neat, it's messy.

it's only afterwards that people - often historians - try to make it all fit in with "history".

Post by **sandywilliams** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:46 am

"-If one follow GR, is the 'root' of a minor triad the b3rd?"

GR would say that in Vertical Tonal Gravity, the b3rd is the center of Tonal Gravity for a minor chord. Thus the b3rd, Lydian Tonic, rests above the Modal Tonic( the root of the chord).

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:07 pm

GR would say that in Vertical Tonal Gravity, the b3rd is the center of Tonal Gravity for a minor chord. Thus the b3rd, Lydian Tonic, rests above the Modal Tonic (the root of the chord).[/quote]

I am at dayjob sans LCC. For clarification, are you saying GR designates Eb as the root of a C minor triad? I think I need a clarification of terms. What are the distinctions among the terms: root, tonic, center of tonal gravity, Lydian tonic, or bass note re the triad? I realize that these distinctions can be controversial and are the stuff of dissertations and theory journals. But how are you using them in this context or reflecting your reading of Russell?

(MoLo, I would be happy to exchange .sib or .mp3 files at some point. In the current exchange, however, I wouldn't want to walk you into the inadvertant appearence of ad hominum, appeal to authority, straw man etc.)(see e.g., http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/)