Since things ARE a little slow, here's something I've been curious about:
I know a decent amount about the Concept, and nothing about the "Modal Jazz Composition and Harmony" books by Ron Miller.
Just FYI, I am a big fan of the Concept and think in terms of the Concept often.
But, many months ago I had a discussion where it was suggested that the Ron Miller material covered a lot of the same ideas but in a simpler and more straightforward way.
Does anyone here know both of these approaches? How would you compare them? What is missing from Ron Miller if it doesn't cover similar ground? Or does Ron Miller offer something the Concept doesn't?
I can't see how the Ron Miller stuff would have a similar idea to a lydian tonic type of element, for example, but that's just a guess until I get the books...
LCC vs Ron Miller
Moderators: bobappleton, sandywilliams
Forum rules
An open letter from Alice Russell. June 21, 2011, Brookline, Massachusetts. 1. DO NOT make insulting, mean spirited remarks about anyone or their work; there are a plethora of sites where you can rant unfettered. If you attack someone personally, your comments will be removed. You can post it, but I'm not paying for it. Go elsewhere, and let those artists who are actually interested in discussion and learning have the floor. 2. There will be NO posting of or links to copyrighted material without permission of the copyright owner. That's the law. And if you respect the work of people who make meaningful contributions, you should have no problem following this policy. 3. I appreciate many of the postings from so many of you. Please don't feel you have to spend your time "defending" the LCC to those who come here with the express purpose of disproving it. George worked for decades to disprove it himself; if you know his music, there's no question that it has gravity. And a final word: George was famous for his refusal to lower his standards in all areas of his life, no matter the cost. He twice refused concerts of his music at Lincoln Center Jazz because of their early position on what was authentically jazz. So save any speculation about the level of him as an artist and a man. The quotes on our websites were not written by George; they were written by critics/writers/scholars/fans over many years. Sincerely, Alice
An open letter from Alice Russell. June 21, 2011, Brookline, Massachusetts. 1. DO NOT make insulting, mean spirited remarks about anyone or their work; there are a plethora of sites where you can rant unfettered. If you attack someone personally, your comments will be removed. You can post it, but I'm not paying for it. Go elsewhere, and let those artists who are actually interested in discussion and learning have the floor. 2. There will be NO posting of or links to copyrighted material without permission of the copyright owner. That's the law. And if you respect the work of people who make meaningful contributions, you should have no problem following this policy. 3. I appreciate many of the postings from so many of you. Please don't feel you have to spend your time "defending" the LCC to those who come here with the express purpose of disproving it. George worked for decades to disprove it himself; if you know his music, there's no question that it has gravity. And a final word: George was famous for his refusal to lower his standards in all areas of his life, no matter the cost. He twice refused concerts of his music at Lincoln Center Jazz because of their early position on what was authentically jazz. So save any speculation about the level of him as an artist and a man. The quotes on our websites were not written by George; they were written by critics/writers/scholars/fans over many years. Sincerely, Alice
-
sandywilliams
- Posts: 201
- Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:17 pm
I’ve never heard of those Ron Miller books. This isn’t saying much. Despite owning several filling cabinets and bookcases full of jazz books there seems like an endless supply of new ones.Sometimes I wonder if I wasn’t better off the way I started : just learning from recordings!
Well you’ve piqued my curiosity about Ron Miller’s books…might have to check ‘em out. Let us know what you think after you’ve had a chance to digest them.
Sandy
Well you’ve piqued my curiosity about Ron Miller’s books…might have to check ‘em out. Let us know what you think after you’ve had a chance to digest them.
Sandy
LCC vs Ron Miller
I think you will enjoy Ron Miller's books.
To have your questions answered and speak to Ron go to:
http://www.music.miami.edu/faculty/msj/miller/ - Faculty
ronmiller@jazzcomp.com - his e-mail and
www.jazzcomp.com - his personal webpage
Musically,
HowardJ
To have your questions answered and speak to Ron go to:
http://www.music.miami.edu/faculty/msj/miller/ - Faculty
ronmiller@jazzcomp.com - his e-mail and
www.jazzcomp.com - his personal webpage
Musically,
HowardJ
-
sandywilliams
- Posts: 201
- Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:17 pm
-
Alan Smith
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:48 am
I'd say that Miller's approach in Vol 1 of his book is one that focusses primarily on composition using voicings dervived the modes of the basic scales as they are traditionally thought of, although they are used here in a non-tradtional non-diatonic way.
Which is to say that Miller uses the term 'chromatic' to mean that you can use modal chords freely to create compositions without reference to an overall key centre or cadential root movement. Each modal chord essentially implying its own tonality.
Miller's book does distinguish between verical/modal and horizontal modal contexts but with the absence of the concept of an order of tonal gravity within the chromatic scale implied they imply, any similarity between it and the Lydian chromatic Concept is superficial.
Having said that it's a valuable compositional method which Miller is offering given the dearth of material on the subjectand one that might be used in tandem with knowledge derived from The L.C.C
Characteristic modal voicings are explored and methods of achieving harmonic continuity and cadence outside of the diatonic system are arrived at through common upper structures in counterpoint with an independent bass root movement and the use of dark to light modal progression.
His grading of the various modes derived from major, melodic, and harmonic minor sources is however more to do with percieved colour rather than tonal gravity and it is here that the difference to the Lydian Chromatic concept registers strongly. The question of how to interpret the modes in an improvisational sense is beyond the scope of the book as is any concept of polymodalism.
Which is to say that Miller uses the term 'chromatic' to mean that you can use modal chords freely to create compositions without reference to an overall key centre or cadential root movement. Each modal chord essentially implying its own tonality.
Miller's book does distinguish between verical/modal and horizontal modal contexts but with the absence of the concept of an order of tonal gravity within the chromatic scale implied they imply, any similarity between it and the Lydian chromatic Concept is superficial.
Having said that it's a valuable compositional method which Miller is offering given the dearth of material on the subjectand one that might be used in tandem with knowledge derived from The L.C.C
Characteristic modal voicings are explored and methods of achieving harmonic continuity and cadence outside of the diatonic system are arrived at through common upper structures in counterpoint with an independent bass root movement and the use of dark to light modal progression.
His grading of the various modes derived from major, melodic, and harmonic minor sources is however more to do with percieved colour rather than tonal gravity and it is here that the difference to the Lydian Chromatic concept registers strongly. The question of how to interpret the modes in an improvisational sense is beyond the scope of the book as is any concept of polymodalism.
Regards
Alan Smith
Alan Smith
-
chespernevins
- Posts: 368
- Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:34 am
I'm late to the forum, but thought I'd weigh in, as one who finds both the LCC & Miller's books indispensible to composition and procedural practise. Alan Smith's post covers it. True the relationship is 'superficial,' in so far as the absence of theoretical influence, but the LCC & Miller are related if one cares to relate them. I find, for example, Miller's tone color priorities and 'emotion continuum' valuable, along with 'Chart A,' for making choices when changing the tonal landscape. I'll pm a basic concordance to help make my case.
10 {The artist formerly known as Bb}