[quote="Anatole"][quote="guitarjazz"]C Lydian in that situation is essentially a G major scale used in place of G Lydian, or a horizontal scale used in place of a vertical scale. A7 being a II.[/quote]
is this situation what is called "Verticalized Horizontal Melody" ? it would be supra vertical then ? (see the thread about Supra Vertical Gravity)[/quote]
Yes to 'Verticalized Horizontal Melody''. I don't think there is quite enough going to qualify as super-vertical. The vamp out of John Coltrane's Satellite is my favorite example of super-vertical playing. He is playing Giant Steps changes over a D pedal.
chart A. 7th#9 chord @(VII) of lyd. aug. !?
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An open letter from Alice Russell. June 21, 2011, Brookline, Massachusetts. 1. DO NOT make insulting, mean spirited remarks about anyone or their work; there are a plethora of sites where you can rant unfettered. If you attack someone personally, your comments will be removed. You can post it, but I'm not paying for it. Go elsewhere, and let those artists who are actually interested in discussion and learning have the floor. 2. There will be NO posting of or links to copyrighted material without permission of the copyright owner. That's the law. And if you respect the work of people who make meaningful contributions, you should have no problem following this policy. 3. I appreciate many of the postings from so many of you. Please don't feel you have to spend your time "defending" the LCC to those who come here with the express purpose of disproving it. George worked for decades to disprove it himself; if you know his music, there's no question that it has gravity. And a final word: George was famous for his refusal to lower his standards in all areas of his life, no matter the cost. He twice refused concerts of his music at Lincoln Center Jazz because of their early position on what was authentically jazz. So save any speculation about the level of him as an artist and a man. The quotes on our websites were not written by George; they were written by critics/writers/scholars/fans over many years. Sincerely, Alice
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Re: chart A. 7th#9 chord @(VII) of lyd. aug. !?
maj scale ie two lydian scales one fifth apart/next to each other,guitarjazz wrote:I don't think there is quite enough going to qualify as super-vertical. The vamp out of John Coltrane's Satellite is my favorite example of super-vertical playing. He is playing Giant Steps changes over a D pedal.
Coltrane Changes, three lydian scales a maj third apart/ distant from each other,
I get it. thanks!
Re: chart A. 7th#9 chord @(VII) of lyd. aug. !?
I've read and practiced the concepts since I was 17 in the late '60s, so I'll take stab.
I have no problem with the VII chord category supporting and A7#9 chord. Sounds natural enough and yet another way to play it.
But I don't see it as being the first ChordMode that supports it. +V does which is the tri-tone substitution for a Dominant V7 (V7 chord analysis not category) chord.
I believe +V would be first place it appears. But interesting it appears in 2 places in the same scale (Lydian Augmented) on +V and VII.
The Lydian scale also supports it the same way just doesn't have the +9 on the chart, so maybe an after thought.
So the function of VII chord category is the same in Lydian or Lydian Augmented only the #5th of the scale is changed and that adds a 13th as a tension instead of the #5 of the chord.
Bb Lydian has A11b9
Bb Lydian Augmented has A11b9 with the 13th if you want to voice it or just play the note in a melody.
So it is a choice or which color you want to use for the A7 chord that is not a II7 which as was said is G Lydian.
You can use the traditional altered 7th which is +V for A7#9 or A altered (b5,#5,b9,#9), or the VII. One has the C# the other does not. 2 different colors.
And fitting it is either a V of I minor, or a more modal use of an A7#9
Remember "As Long As You Know Your Are Living Yours" by Keith Jarret? Jan Garbarek does a wailing modal solo over A7#9 whatever
and I hear the Bb Lydian coming out of it with a Flamenco type voicing for the A7.
A E Bb C# E A I play guitar so I voice it that way on the 5th fret, or an open position version used in Flamenco.
The #9 is not the prominent part, but the point is you could emphasis it in a melody.
Side note: They say Flamenco is E Phrygian. I think is the VII chord for F Lydian. Either way it is Modal even though they change chords some.
It follows the harmonic rhythm of the Singer that is in the end grounded on earth. A lot like the solos in the above Keith Jarret song.
Other choices for A7#9 for me are Horizontally oriented: A Blues Scale and D Harmonic Minor.
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I like to think the analysis in C Lydian and think of Autumn Leaves in E Minor/G Major.
I like this example because one of the facets I came across is the ChordMode is defined in your ear by the bass line or bass note use against the chord.
I strongly believe we hear harmony from the bottom up, so the bass note can change everything.
We can play the first 8 bars with C Lydian and throw in C Lydian Diminshed and Augmented on the II V in E minor or not.
Am7 D7 G C F#m7b5 B7#5b9#9 (whatever) E minor
II V I IV in G II V I in E minor On the G Maj 7 you should use G Lydian and back to C Lydian on the IV chord which is a big change in the progression.
All the chords fit C Lydian except the G Maj 7 I chord and use all of the ChordModes for C Lydian except III CMaj7/IIIB and V GMaj7/VB the inversions of the Lydian I.
And you can almost use the same voicing's for all the chords and just change the bass note.
Not much of a stretch and C Lydian Dim and Aug take care of the minor key chords in E minor.
You have VI Am7 II D7 I C Major 7 +IV F#m7b5 VII B11b9 change to C Lyd dim on the B7 and you get B7#5 etc without the SUS 4 (11th)
change to C Lyd Aug on the F# and you get +IV F#m9b5
Notice no one says anything about C Lydian for +IV which has a b9 [F#m7b5b9]. And I don't think I ever play the b9 in the chord for it.
But I do use F#m9b5 +IV from the C Lydian Augmented.
This is a good example because it uses all the ChordModes of a C Lydian scale with or without the bIII and +V Tone of the next 2 scales.
And the point being this is like Level 2 in the system.
C Lydian 7 Tone order --- Level One
C Lydian Diminished and C Lydian Augmented 9 Tone order --- Level Two
Most of "Modern Jazz" theory is in Level 1 and 2 or the 7 Tone and 9 Tone orders. The meat being in the 9 Tone Order.
The it just gets more complex and out in the other scales. Or should I say "Out-Going".
Hope I am not over staying my welcome by crashing in on this.
Thanks, ChrisG (Not to be confused with ChrisE)
I have no problem with the VII chord category supporting and A7#9 chord. Sounds natural enough and yet another way to play it.
But I don't see it as being the first ChordMode that supports it. +V does which is the tri-tone substitution for a Dominant V7 (V7 chord analysis not category) chord.
I believe +V would be first place it appears. But interesting it appears in 2 places in the same scale (Lydian Augmented) on +V and VII.
The Lydian scale also supports it the same way just doesn't have the +9 on the chart, so maybe an after thought.
So the function of VII chord category is the same in Lydian or Lydian Augmented only the #5th of the scale is changed and that adds a 13th as a tension instead of the #5 of the chord.
Bb Lydian has A11b9
Bb Lydian Augmented has A11b9 with the 13th if you want to voice it or just play the note in a melody.
So it is a choice or which color you want to use for the A7 chord that is not a II7 which as was said is G Lydian.
You can use the traditional altered 7th which is +V for A7#9 or A altered (b5,#5,b9,#9), or the VII. One has the C# the other does not. 2 different colors.
And fitting it is either a V of I minor, or a more modal use of an A7#9
Remember "As Long As You Know Your Are Living Yours" by Keith Jarret? Jan Garbarek does a wailing modal solo over A7#9 whatever
and I hear the Bb Lydian coming out of it with a Flamenco type voicing for the A7.
A E Bb C# E A I play guitar so I voice it that way on the 5th fret, or an open position version used in Flamenco.
The #9 is not the prominent part, but the point is you could emphasis it in a melody.
Side note: They say Flamenco is E Phrygian. I think is the VII chord for F Lydian. Either way it is Modal even though they change chords some.
It follows the harmonic rhythm of the Singer that is in the end grounded on earth. A lot like the solos in the above Keith Jarret song.
Other choices for A7#9 for me are Horizontally oriented: A Blues Scale and D Harmonic Minor.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I like to think the analysis in C Lydian and think of Autumn Leaves in E Minor/G Major.
I like this example because one of the facets I came across is the ChordMode is defined in your ear by the bass line or bass note use against the chord.
I strongly believe we hear harmony from the bottom up, so the bass note can change everything.
We can play the first 8 bars with C Lydian and throw in C Lydian Diminshed and Augmented on the II V in E minor or not.
Am7 D7 G C F#m7b5 B7#5b9#9 (whatever) E minor
II V I IV in G II V I in E minor On the G Maj 7 you should use G Lydian and back to C Lydian on the IV chord which is a big change in the progression.
All the chords fit C Lydian except the G Maj 7 I chord and use all of the ChordModes for C Lydian except III CMaj7/IIIB and V GMaj7/VB the inversions of the Lydian I.
And you can almost use the same voicing's for all the chords and just change the bass note.
Not much of a stretch and C Lydian Dim and Aug take care of the minor key chords in E minor.
You have VI Am7 II D7 I C Major 7 +IV F#m7b5 VII B11b9 change to C Lyd dim on the B7 and you get B7#5 etc without the SUS 4 (11th)
change to C Lyd Aug on the F# and you get +IV F#m9b5
Notice no one says anything about C Lydian for +IV which has a b9 [F#m7b5b9]. And I don't think I ever play the b9 in the chord for it.
But I do use F#m9b5 +IV from the C Lydian Augmented.
This is a good example because it uses all the ChordModes of a C Lydian scale with or without the bIII and +V Tone of the next 2 scales.
And the point being this is like Level 2 in the system.
C Lydian 7 Tone order --- Level One
C Lydian Diminished and C Lydian Augmented 9 Tone order --- Level Two
Most of "Modern Jazz" theory is in Level 1 and 2 or the 7 Tone and 9 Tone orders. The meat being in the 9 Tone Order.
The it just gets more complex and out in the other scales. Or should I say "Out-Going".
Hope I am not over staying my welcome by crashing in on this.
Thanks, ChrisG (Not to be confused with ChrisE)
Thanks, Chris
Re: chart A. 7th#9 chord @(VII) of lyd. aug. !?
Great reply Chris! One of my favorite theory teachers (who turned me on to LCC years ago) gave me an exercise that was very similar to what you mentioned with Autumn Leaves - using only a handful of voicings (from Lyd, Lyd Aug, Lyd Dim) to play over an entire tune. It really reinforced one of the important points you made about hearing Harmony from the 'bottom up', and how powerful a change of bass note can be, even when using the same voicing. Mick Goodrick also included some of that idea in his Advancing Guitarist book, which is fantastic.