Hearing the WOTG

[chespernevins]

I was playing this exercise this morning.

This exercise is based on altering the notes of the Lydian, one at a time, to keep a 7 note chord throughout. I am sure I am not the first to do this.

On a good piano, I played Eb Lydian VI in tertian order (C min 13 chord), and then altered the notes of Lydian VI in order of the WOTG. I chose C min/Eb Lyd because it seemed like a good register on the piano.

I played the following, playing the Lydian VI chord first each time to "cleanse the palette". Then I played the altered chord. I repeated the FULL altered chord, but for ease of notation here, I will just write the one note that is altered.

1) Lyd VI (C min 13) -> LA VI (Cmin Maj7 13)

A
F
D
Bb -> B
G
Eb
C

2) Lyd VI -> LD VI (Cmin7 b5 nat 9 13)

A
F
D
Bb
G -> Gb
Eb
C

3) Lyd VI -> Lyd b7 VI (Cmin b9 13)

A
F
D -> Db
Bb
G
Eb
C

4) Lyd VI -> Ionian VI (Cmin b13)

A -> Ab
F
D
Bb
G
Eb
C

5) Lyd VI -> Lyd b2 VI (Cmin b11? 13)

A
F -> Fb (E)
D
Bb
G
Eb
C

Exploring the relative minor seemed like an intuitive way to hear the WOTG. (I think guitarjazz mentioned this once or twice.)

I think this is pretty straight forward up through the 10 tone order. But interestingly, the LCC goes to symmetrical scales to provide the colors of the 11 and 12 tone orders.

For this type of exercise, am I missing something or creating confusion by using an altered Lydian scale in the 11 and 12 tone orders, instead of the symmetrical scales? That is, in terms of strictly attempting to hear the ingoing to outgoing progression of the 9 to 12 tone orders.

[chespernevins]

At first glance...regarding the ladder of fifths.

Is there reason why C# can't enter enharmonically as Db? This would allow Ab, Eb, & Bb to join the ladder; then consider their unique relationship to C?

You could see it this way, of course - if I understand your post.

In the experiment, I wanted to simply add, one at a time, each of the five outgoing notes to the C Lydian ladder to see what effect it seemed to have.

The question is, if we put Db on the "bottom" of this cycle of fifths, then why is F, Bb, Eb, and Ab gradually more and more consonant and then Db suddenly the most dissonant?

Why does Db break the pattern? Is there some different circumstance with Db?

If you look at the cycle of fifths, you notice that F and C#, the two most dissonant notes, are surrounding C Lydian.


Bb
Eb
Ab
C# <---------- 12 TO
F# -- C Lyd
B
E
A
D
G
C -- C Lyd
F <---------- 11 TO
Bb <---------- 10 TO
Eb <----------- 9 TO
Ab <----------- 9 TO
Db <---------- 12 TO


Does their dissonance have something to do with their close proximity to the limits of C Lydian on the cycle?

F is the second most dissonant note in the WOTG. It is also the quintessential horizontal tone because of its flat lying close proximity to C Lydian.

Introducing an F to C Lydian becomes a tension note because it suggests the tonic of a flat lying key.

Is there some link between this and the fact that C# is one fifth sharp to C Lydian and is also the most dissonant note in the WOTG?

Playing an F in a C Lyd environment introduces a shade of F Lyd into C Lyd. And sure, we could say that playing a Db introduces a shade of Db Lyd into C Lyd. But I'm suggesting that C# in a C Lyd environment could be seen/heard as introducing a shade of G Lydian into C Lyd.

For example, if we play a C# over an A min (C LYD VI) chord, it greatly challenges the very minor quality of that minor chord. This is the only outgoing note that actually threatens the minor quality of the VI chord.

If we view this C# as suggesting an A Maj (b7) chord, doesn't this suggest a shade of G Lydian?

===

The C-F# tritone suggests C Lyd. It could suggest F# Lydian as well, except that the notes {G,D,A,E,B} are between them on this view of the cycle, making it strongly C Lydian.

If we add an F to the C Lydian Ladder {F,C,G,D,A,E,B,F#} the C-F# tritone is still there of course, but in addition, the secondary F-B tritone suggests F Lyd. In fact, we have all the notes of F Lyd present, making a full ladder of fifths on F.

If we add, for example, Eb to the C Lydian Ladder {Eb,C,G,D,A,E,B,F#}, our C-F# tritone is still present. We also have a secondary tritone of Eb-A. But unlike the F Lydian example, we do not have all the notes of Eb Lyd. We only have {Eb,C,G,D,A}. We don't have a ladder of fifths built on Eb.

If we add Db/C# to the C Lydian Ladder, we still have our C-F# tritone. We also have a Db-G tritone. This tritone could suggest Db Lydian, or it could suggest G Lydian. We don't have a full Lydian scale built on Db, however, with the notes {Db,C,G,D,A,E,B,F#}. We only have {Db,C,G}. But we do have a full G Lydian scale with this set of notes: {C,G,D,A,E,B,F#,C#}.

So we could say that a secondary tritone of G-C# in C Lydian more suggests G Lydian than it does Db Lydian.

[chespernevins]

ML,

Thanks a lot for taking the time to look over my thoughts. I like your characterization of a parallel universe!

I can only imagine how weird that must have been when you heard tonal gravity had re-arranged itself! It must be strange to have to translate as you read posts like this.

Anyway, thanks for taking a look.

[guitarjazz]

Having heard George Russell play the Principal ChordModes at the piano I believe that his thinking was more based on his ears more than a slide rule. In the case of the troublesome bII, play an F major Principal ChordMode, now add a Gb. It certainly is a troublemaker. GR was concerned with vertical unity and the WOTG does as nice job of establishing a spectrum whereby all twelve tones can be utilized vertical over any PMG. If you sit at the piano and start playing all the chords starting on page 23 I think it will become more apparent what GR was after.
If you spend too much time on the floor of the woods with a microscope you might miss the tastiest morels.

[guitarjazz]

I'm not surprised that you mentioned Tell Me A Bedtime Story. Interestingly enough, George discussed this piece and analysed it in terms of HTG. I guess that would be a good one to discuss with Ben at a lesson.
I think the bII is quite a rub, in a vertical sense, over PMG I Major.
Not sure what you are getting at about using C# in and F major chord. In the 9 tone order there could be an F major7#5 FAC#E. Having a C natural in the chord at the same time is possible under certain circumstances but I don't think it's what the author intended initially.

[guitarjazz]

Joey, have you heard this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCEw_04Ikuc

[guitarjazz]

[quote="joegold"][quote="guitarjazz"]I'm not surprised that you mentioned Tell Me A Bedtime Story. Interestingly enough, George discussed this piece and analysed it in terms of HTG. I guess that would be a good one to discuss with Ben at a lesson.
I think the bII is quite a rub, in a vertical sense, over PMG I Major.
Not sure what you are getting at about using C# in and F major chord. In the 9 tone order there could be an F major7#5 FAC#E. Having a C natural in the chord at the same time is possible under certain circumstances but I don't think it's what the author intended initially.[/quote]

Actually, about the maj(add#5) [or maj(addb6) or however you want to notate it] chord, I just realized that I was wrong earlier about the P5th and the #5 not being able to coexist within the same chord without destroying either the chord's harmoniousness or its root feeling.
F Db A C is a such a voicing.
It's still a highly harmonious sonority and it still has a root feeling on F.

The point I was trying to make is that adding bII to a maj chord is really not that big a deal either and I still can't see why GR decided that he had to skip it in his ordering of the tones of the vertical tonal gravity field.
I.e. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the "Western Order".
I just don't get it.
To me, with my present admittedly limited understanding of the LCC, that skip of the bII seems to bring the whole house of cards, i.e. the *theory* on which the Concept is actually based, tumbling down.

At the present time I'm not here in this forum as a LCC believer who is trying to get deeper into the Concept.
I'm here as someone who is intrigued by the Concept but who can not (yet?) reconcile the other things I'm convinced that I know about music with Russell's seminal ideas.
For the time being at least, until y'all happen to convince me of the Concept's theoretical truths it'd be a good idea to keep that in mind when talking to me.

Meanwhile, in the other thread here that I actually started, I asked whether there was another more objective order of tonal gravity that Russell discusses besides the "Western Order", but no-one has answered me about that yet.
Am I correct in thinking that the Horizontal Order Of Tonal Gravity consists of a different order of tones from the Western Order which is primarily a vertical concept?
Does the horizontal order just stick to the ladder of 5ths?[/quote]
That's a nice chord. F Db A C. What would the chord be called if you reordered the notes and say , started with Db in the bottom?
Yes , the Circle of Close to Distant Relationships sticks to the circle(not ladder) of fifths. That's in the last lesson of the 1959 edition which you might have.
If the bII thing is bothering you I guess I'll throw a question back to you: How would you personally create an inside outside continuum for an F major chord/scale( with all 12 tones available)?

[chespernevins]

If the bII thing is bothering you I guess I'll throw a question back to you: How would you personally create an inside outside continuum for an F major chord/scale( with all 12 tones available)?

I was going to ask the same thing, Joe.