Stravinsky/Lydian
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An open letter from Alice Russell. June 21, 2011, Brookline, Massachusetts. 1. DO NOT make insulting, mean spirited remarks about anyone or their work; there are a plethora of sites where you can rant unfettered. If you attack someone personally, your comments will be removed. You can post it, but I'm not paying for it. Go elsewhere, and let those artists who are actually interested in discussion and learning have the floor. 2. There will be NO posting of or links to copyrighted material without permission of the copyright owner. That's the law. And if you respect the work of people who make meaningful contributions, you should have no problem following this policy. 3. I appreciate many of the postings from so many of you. Please don't feel you have to spend your time "defending" the LCC to those who come here with the express purpose of disproving it. George worked for decades to disprove it himself; if you know his music, there's no question that it has gravity. And a final word: George was famous for his refusal to lower his standards in all areas of his life, no matter the cost. He twice refused concerts of his music at Lincoln Center Jazz because of their early position on what was authentically jazz. So save any speculation about the level of him as an artist and a man. The quotes on our websites were not written by George; they were written by critics/writers/scholars/fans over many years. Sincerely, Alice
An open letter from Alice Russell. June 21, 2011, Brookline, Massachusetts. 1. DO NOT make insulting, mean spirited remarks about anyone or their work; there are a plethora of sites where you can rant unfettered. If you attack someone personally, your comments will be removed. You can post it, but I'm not paying for it. Go elsewhere, and let those artists who are actually interested in discussion and learning have the floor. 2. There will be NO posting of or links to copyrighted material without permission of the copyright owner. That's the law. And if you respect the work of people who make meaningful contributions, you should have no problem following this policy. 3. I appreciate many of the postings from so many of you. Please don't feel you have to spend your time "defending" the LCC to those who come here with the express purpose of disproving it. George worked for decades to disprove it himself; if you know his music, there's no question that it has gravity. And a final word: George was famous for his refusal to lower his standards in all areas of his life, no matter the cost. He twice refused concerts of his music at Lincoln Center Jazz because of their early position on what was authentically jazz. So save any speculation about the level of him as an artist and a man. The quotes on our websites were not written by George; they were written by critics/writers/scholars/fans over many years. Sincerely, Alice
I love that. You can hear so many pieces that you'd love to hear someone improvising over. I've tried to write such things, but have made the mistake of scoring for 10-12 musicians, mixing classical and jazz players. Oy Vay! Often a bit of tension. and rehearsals impossible. I'm trying to do that now and limiting to percussionist, keyboard/voice, woodwind w/boucoup doubles. So their is a 'complete' orchestra.' as it were. Each piece with its soloist, who just responds to the 'landscape' "Mockingbird wish me luck." (Bukowski, C.)motherlode wrote:Yes, no question, Gil Evans' music says that he was inspired by what he heard from Stravinsky.
Mingus said that Bird called him on the phone once and said listen to this...he was improvising over the "Firebird Suite". Mingus said it was the most beautiful thing that he had ever heard. One can only imagine.
Maybe, if i stopped dicking around on these forums.... It's stupid, I've got the venues, underwriters.... Improvising is fun, writing is work.
10 {The artist formerly known as Bb}
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chespernevins
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ML,
Wonderful illustration and description! Love it.
I think I understand your larger point of using unique notes in the melody.
Can you guys hear any analogy in this solo by Paul Bley on "All the Things You Are" from the Sonny Meets Hawk record?
http://www.4shared.com/file/47764522/d7 ... ATTYA.html
On the Stravinsky example, are you hearing the melody and chords as all being from the C Lydian Chromatic Scale?
OR
The C Lydian scale seems to have a HTG resolution to D Major implied. This could be seen as being over Bb lydian II chords. This gives us an image of a melody that lies 4 fifths in a sharp direction from the harmony (D Major tonic station over Bb lydian).
What do you think?
Wonderful illustration and description! Love it.
I think I understand your larger point of using unique notes in the melody.
Can you guys hear any analogy in this solo by Paul Bley on "All the Things You Are" from the Sonny Meets Hawk record?
http://www.4shared.com/file/47764522/d7 ... ATTYA.html
On the Stravinsky example, are you hearing the melody and chords as all being from the C Lydian Chromatic Scale?
OR
The C Lydian scale seems to have a HTG resolution to D Major implied. This could be seen as being over Bb lydian II chords. This gives us an image of a melody that lies 4 fifths in a sharp direction from the harmony (D Major tonic station over Bb lydian).
What do you think?
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chespernevins
- Posts: 368
- Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:34 am
Yes, this is not an easy approach to use consistently!He played the changes; He had the musical muscle to sustain his approach;
I love the moments of motivic development he pulls off. It holds together the abstract tonal relationships.He was wrestling with trying to play ideas.
I am at the point where I can sing some phrases from this solo. But I want to try to get more of it. What made me think of this solo in relation to the Stravinsky example was the sharp lying tonal relationships. For ex, in the Bley solo he will sometimes do things like play an E lydian melody over a G Major chord. (He also plays flat lying lydian scales at times).
IN a less polytonal moment, he plays the whole bridge of one chorus in C Lydian (with one C# coming in over the G Maj chord, but then right back to C lydian.) We all know that that's not unusual - but the way he uses it at that point is unique.
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chespernevins
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- Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:34 am
Yes, I try to!
A solo with this many notes is tougher to sing exactly all the way through without nailing down some pitches with the instrument.
But there are long stretches that are singable. (check out 1:00 - 1:15 and 1:45 - 2:04 for examples)
I was just checking out the end of the 2nd A section (first chorus). Over the ii V I in G maj he plays A lydian, then he seems to go into A Lyd Aug but uses that F to pivot into Db lydian.
A solo with this many notes is tougher to sing exactly all the way through without nailing down some pitches with the instrument.
But there are long stretches that are singable. (check out 1:00 - 1:15 and 1:45 - 2:04 for examples)
I was just checking out the end of the 2nd A section (first chorus). Over the ii V I in G maj he plays A lydian, then he seems to go into A Lyd Aug but uses that F to pivot into Db lydian.
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chespernevins
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- Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:34 am
BTW, Sorry to highjack the Stravinsky thread with this PB stuff.
I've wanted to analyze this PB solo in LCC terms for a while, thinking that it may be partially analyzed using Russell's "modes of cadence".
Not being 100% sure of all the implications of the 4 types of modes of cadence, I wasn't sure how to broach the subject.
Then the sharp lying melody (C Lydian or D Major) over the flat lying chords (in Bb or polytonal Bb and Db) brought up the subject.
I should probably just start a new topic.
I've wanted to analyze this PB solo in LCC terms for a while, thinking that it may be partially analyzed using Russell's "modes of cadence".
Not being 100% sure of all the implications of the 4 types of modes of cadence, I wasn't sure how to broach the subject.
Then the sharp lying melody (C Lydian or D Major) over the flat lying chords (in Bb or polytonal Bb and Db) brought up the subject.
I should probably just start a new topic.
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chespernevins
- Posts: 368
- Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:34 am
The chords in this Stravinsky example are right in line with George's "Poly-Modal Harmonic Structures" (Example 2 page "H" in the Technical Appendix of the old 1959 book).
We know that GR was into Stravinsky, if for no other reason than he has a piece called "A Bird in Igor's Yard".
My question would be, is the C Lydian melody now a Vertical "Outgoing Modal" Melody in the key of Bb lydian?
This seems to imply to me that the harmony is the gravity centering element and that the melody is outgoing with relation to it.
But I wonder if my ears really perceive it that way. Maybe the melody is the gravity centering element? In which case, how do we summarize this tonal behavior?
We know that GR was into Stravinsky, if for no other reason than he has a piece called "A Bird in Igor's Yard".
My question would be, is the C Lydian melody now a Vertical "Outgoing Modal" Melody in the key of Bb lydian?
This seems to imply to me that the harmony is the gravity centering element and that the melody is outgoing with relation to it.
But I wonder if my ears really perceive it that way. Maybe the melody is the gravity centering element? In which case, how do we summarize this tonal behavior?
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chespernevins
- Posts: 368
- Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:34 am
Thanks for asking. I have it up and running, with some success, but need to spend more time with it to get the details I need.By the way, how is your notation program coming?
I want to spend some more ear time on the PB solo, but then I realize the best way to share it here would be to write it up (or at least portions of it) and post it.
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chespernevins
- Posts: 368
- Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:34 am